Basics. Weathering. Washes

This is the place to get answers about painting, weathering and other aspects of finishing a model.

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Post by starmanmm » Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:52 am

MIG
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Post by hoth rebel » Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:35 am

MIG is oil based?

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Post by Kylwell » Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:10 pm

Ak Interactive or Mig.
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Post by hoth rebel » Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:18 pm

So I should proceed in this manner.
After building:
Spray on a Model Masters gloss coat
Then use the Mig wash in the panel lines
Wipe off excess wash with mineral spirits
And then dull coat.

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Post by Mr. Badwrench » Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:48 pm

Yes.
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Post by DeltaVee » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:36 pm

After watching FicthenFoo's Millennium Falcon weathering tutorial, I decided I wanted to try it and that the perfect test case is a 10-15 year old MPC Falcon buildup. I painted it in either MM or Floquil enamels with no overcoat.

Then I come here and the first thing I read is I can't use oils. The tutorial starts with a base coat of Tamiya acrylics, BTW. I don't see how I can gloss coat over my enamels because the weathering isn't just a wash. It's an overall dirtying where he brushes the entire finish with oderless turpenoid and then dabs and streaks on Mig Abtelung oils. I can't see how a gloss finish would give the oils anything to grab to.

No other options for using oils? Different thinner? Different oil?

This is not a one-model problem. I love Floquil enamels for sci fi models, but it sounds like I'd have to kiss oils goodbye if I use Floquil.

Advice?

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Post by TurkeyVolumeGuessingMan » Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:26 am

Wait... what? Plenty of people use artist oil paints for washes. That FitchenFoo video even shows artists oils being used. Some people are only saying that Bandai plastics may not be good with using turpentine, but there are alternatives.

The gloss coat is so that it can properly wash over the surface. A flat coat is porous and therefore will collect the paint more, AFAIK.
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Post by Kylwell » Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:57 am

Turpentine is a solvent and can damage underlying coats of enamel based paint. Acrylic paints, because they use a different base, are unaffected. A simple coat of clear acrylic solves the problem.
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Post by DeltaVee » Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:48 am

Thanks. Got it. But if it has an acrylic overcoat, does that ruin the weathering effects of the oils? I'm not just doing a wash, but as the video shows, an overall wetbrushing of turp on the surface followed by streaking and brushing thinned oils over the whole surface.

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Post by Saturn » Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:27 am

If you're referring to Ficthenfoo's "discoloration" technique, yeah you can't do that with a gloss barrier coat. You'll end up simply washing the oils around and not actually tinting the panels.
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Post by Kylwell » Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:43 am

in which case you use a matte barrier coat.
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Post by DeltaVee » Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:51 pm

Sounds like an adventure. So I need an ACRYLIC matte coat? OR is there another option? Got any recommendations? I've been using Future and Tamiya Flat Base so long that I don't know anything else. But that uses up a lot of Flat Base in the process.

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Post by Kylwell » Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:58 pm

Acrylics is safest. Varnishes may work but it depends on the varnish. I've seen everything from varathane to artist fixative used but results may vary.
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Post by DeltaVee » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:22 pm

I guess my trusty ol' MPC Falcon is about to earn its 'hunk of junk' nickname while I work out this process. Any oils' compatible flat coat recommendations anyone?

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Post by Kylwell » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:42 pm

I use Testor's Matte Acrylic.
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Post by Lt. Z0mBe » Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:17 am

DeltaVee wrote:I guess my trusty ol' MPC Falcon is about to earn its 'hunk of junk' nickname while I work out this process. Any oils' compatible flat coat recommendations anyone?
I use Liquitex Matte, thinned for airbrushing with airbrushing medium and Flow-Aid.

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Post by DeltaVee » Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:22 pm

Thanks. If I wanted to use some of the new 'pigments/powders' for streaking rust or grime over an enamel base coat, can I: a. use the pigments dry, then seal with an acrylic clear coat and then do an oil or enamel wash? Or b. stir the pigments into some acrylic medium like water, alcohol, Future, etc. and do the same thing? I'm just thinking to minimize the layers to do what I can with the flat enamel base coat before going to an acrylic flat for a next step. In short, what is the recommended process starting with an enamel base coat to a finish that includes a panel wash, streaking, etc?

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Post by Styrofoam_Guy » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:49 pm

I have been weathering my 1/72 Fine Molds Millennium Falcon kits and the 1/144 Bandai and Fine Molds kits.

I have MIG pigments, Quartermaster Depot pigments and Tamiya Weathering Master sets.

I found the pigments to be a bit messy and not always easy to control.

Although I preferred the Tamiya Weathering Master sets what I found works very well is eyeshadow kits. If you go to the dollar store there are a variety of colours to suit almost all your needs. They come with a little sponge on a stick applicator similar to what is in the Tamiya Weathering Master sets.

Paints
For my primer coat I used Plasticote grey sandable primer
The base colour was a mix of Tamiya acrylic paints (flats)

My wash was a few drops of Tamiya acrylic flat black in 50% rubbing alcohol. Maybe because it was 50% rubbing alcohol it did not attack the undercoat. The wash was quickly brushed on with little to no rubbing back and forth.

There was no clear coat between the base colour and the wash.

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Post by Kylwell » Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:30 pm

DeltaVee wrote:Thanks. If I wanted to use some of the new 'pigments/powders' for streaking rust or grime over an enamel base coat, can I: a. use the pigments dry, then seal with an acrylic clear coat and then do an oil or enamel wash? Or b. stir the pigments into some acrylic medium like water, alcohol, Future, etc. and do the same thing? I'm just thinking to minimize the layers to do what I can with the flat enamel base coat before going to an acrylic flat for a next step. In short, what is the recommended process starting with an enamel base coat to a finish that includes a panel wash, streaking, etc?
Mig/AK/Vallejo pigments can be fixed with simple turpenoid. Or you can seal them with a matte coat. The trick with pastels is to not spray directly onto them.

Tamiya sets will also need fixing or they will smear. As a note, if your Tamiya pigments have gone hard add a drop of Tamiya thinner to the pat and let it soak in.
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Re: Basics. Weathering. Washes

Post by hoth rebel » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:45 pm

I need a recipe for a simple black wash.
I am doing a Bandai X-Wing. Can I use a acrylic wash directly on that plastic and clean up the wash with just q-tips?
Thanks.

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Re: Basics. Weathering. Washes

Post by Robert S » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:33 am

anything you do will destroy your decals if they are not sealed.

Here is a very simple technique that will get you through. It’s water and pastels

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrCueONhuko

Even if you are not going to paint the model you should seal it if you can

If that is not an option I really would not do any weathering. If you just want to highlight the panel lines and good technical pen or the Tamiya Panel line washes are a good alternative.

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Re: Basics. Weathering. Washes

Post by hoth rebel » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:16 am

So an acrylic wash will mess up the decals?

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Re: Basics. Weathering. Washes

Post by EVApodman » Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:09 am

hoth rebel wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:16 am
So an acrylic wash will mess up the decals?
The water in them COULD loosen decals. I always seal in all my stuff before I start weathering.
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Re: Basics. Weathering. Washes

Post by hoth rebel » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:21 pm

I dont have a airbrush for future floor wax.
What spry can is a good one to use?
Thanks

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Re: Basics. Weathering. Washes

Post by EVApodman » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:40 pm

Try Testors Glosscote but use a test piece first. On rattle cans you don't know how old they are. I suggest investing in an airbrush. You can get a cheap one from Badger to learn with.
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Re: Basics. Weathering. Washes

Post by hoth rebel » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:01 pm

So what is the recipe for a Tamiya Flat Black acrylic wash?

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Re: Basics. Weathering. Washes

Post by Lt. Z0mBe » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:49 am

hoth rebel wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:01 pm
So what is the recipe for a Tamiya Flat Black acrylic wash?
I'm of the opinion you can't really have an acrylic paint wash. Acrylic paint is pigment suspended in polymer which is, in turn diluted in either lacquer-, ammonia- or alcohol-based solvents. The solvent evaporates and the little polymer strands crosslink to each other, essentially making an acrylic or latex "shell" with the pigment in it.

You're probably wondering why I describe that process. Well with a true wash, you thin out paint a bunch, let it (at least nearly) dry and you wipe the excess away with a solvent-dampened rag, brush or swab. Makes sense, right? For that to happen with, say oil paints or enamels, the polymer/binder has to be able to be "awakened" by solvent once dry. Acrylic paints don't really behave that way. Instead of the polymer re-moistening and being able to be wiped off gradually, like say lipstick on your cheek, it wipes away in little chunks. Why? 'Cause the little pieces of polymer don't unlink from each other in the same way that polymers in enamel and oil paints do - those paints' polymers unlink down to the smallest individual polymer whereas the acrylic paint unlinks in chains smaller than the crosslinked coat. What's that mean to you? If you're using them over an acrylic glosscoat, acrylic washes are going to not be smoothly removable because your wash solvent will etch the acrylic glosscoat, causing more staining than washing; the removal step itself will also damage the acrylic glosscoat while also not smoothly remove the acrylic wash (again, it's broken up into little chains instead of individual polymer pieces).

You could get around this by using a glosscoat lacquer. But, this stuff absolutely, positively yellows over time. No, your model doesn't have to be in the sun for it to happen. Every stinking one of my builds from the early-to-mid 90's has done this and they never spent more time in the sun than it took to walk them into the contest room. It happened within a few years which is what led me to Future in 1996 and I never looked back. ;)

So what's a guy to do? You have three options:

1.) Oil and enamel washes over acrylic glosscoats. Future floor polish makes a great glosscoat. Allow your glosscoat to cure, cure, cure and cure some more. Use artist's turpentine for the oil or enamel paints (or lighter fluid or white spirit). Avoid turpenoid as it is actually chemically hotter than turpentine and some brands can etch acrylics. I thought it was the other way around with respect to turpenoid-versus-turpentine hotness and could not, for the life of me figure out why I could not get oil washes to work over Future without etching when the whole rest of the internet could, lol. Before I figured that out, I used 2.) below...

2.) Don't like 1.), try pastel washes. I personally used these for years as my primary wash and still use them occasionally over Future'd and non-Futured gloss surfaces. I developed the technique myself by using laundry soap (later Liquitex Flow-Aid) as a fluidificant to lower the surface tension of distilled water to that of gasoline. No, seriously the water and soap/Flow-Aid would flow like gasoline into the panel lines. Use artists pastels and powder them. Then add the powdered pastels to your water and soap/Flow Aid mixture. The beauty of this technique is the washes blend just like oil washes (at least remarkably close) when their excess is wiped away. Also, the solvent for them is harmless (and cheap!) distilled water. Don't want pastels? Try 3.) below...

3.) Use water colors. Note, I am saying "water colors" and not "water-based acrylic colors." Water colors have no polymer in them. They are just pigment, either dry or suspended in water and fluidificant. Regardless, use them the same way as the pastel washes, including adding them to a water and soap/Flow-Aid solution.

Of these three, 1.) is absolutely the best. Don't take my word for it. Take a piece of scrap styrene sheet scribe some lines in it and paint it. Then coat it with Future and allow it to cure. Place a drop of acrylic paint on it, a drop of oil paint and a drop of enamel paint. Try to wipe each of them off after they've dried using alcohol or Windex for the acrylics and turpentine (or lighter fluid or white spirit) with the oil and enamel paints. See which ones come off smoothly, blending as they go and which come off "chunkily" (is that a word?). Then mix up your washes (including the pastel and water color washes) and repeat the wipe off process. Again, note their smoothness and blendability as their excess is removed.

I hope this helps a bit.

Kenny

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Re: Basics. Weathering. Washes

Post by hoth rebel » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:43 pm

I am wanting to black wash Bandai Star Wars models.
A water based acrylic wash wont work directly on that plastic without a gloss coat then?

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Re: Basics. Weathering. Washes

Post by Saturn » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:34 pm

If you want to do panel lines crevices and detail work, you need a gloss finish to wash over. (easier to remove the excess) If you want to "stain" panels, you do it on a flat finish. But Zombe is saying not to use Acrylics for washes and I agree with him.
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Re: Basics. Weathering. Washes

Post by Lt. Z0mBe » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:42 pm

hoth rebel wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:43 pm
I am wanting to black wash Bandai Star Wars models.
A water based acrylic wash wont work directly on that plastic without a gloss coat then?
First question would be is "Why would you not want a glosscoat?" Secondly, I would humbly say to re-read my post earlier and you'll see why acrylic washes are bantha poudou. I don't say this flippantly, by the way. I am trying to help.

To be frank doing washes well is more of an intermediate-to-advanced technique. If you're not wanting to paint (and necessarily fill and sand) your model to get a scale finish, there's no point. A wash is to give scale shadowing to things like raised and recessed details and panel lines. In short, it helps create the illusion. If you're using bare plastic with its gaps and waxy appearnace, you automatically have no chance of creating that illusion, so the wash is pointless. Work on your filling and sanding and your decaling and airbrushing. Then when you're ready, starting washes, glazes and filters. You'll be there before you know it.

I hope this helps.

Kenny

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