Styrene cements and construction

Got a question about techniques, materials or other aspects of physically building a model? This is the place to ask.

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TER-OR
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Styrene cements and construction

Post by TER-OR » Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:21 pm

Talk amongst yourselves.
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Tenax

Post by raist3001 » Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:52 pm

Since Tenanx comes in a bottle with no application, What is the best way to apply tenax to joints?
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Re: Tenax

Post by Kylwell » Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:13 pm

raist3001 wrote:Since Tenanx comes in a bottle with no application, What is the best way to apply tenax to joints?
I have two old single '0" brushes I used for applying Tennax. They've survived some 8 years.
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Post by TER-OR » Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:56 pm

I really like the capillary applicator, though for things like wing leading edges it can be hard to control, making the brushes more attractive.

http://www.ehobbytools.com/en-us/dept_7.html
Flex-i-file calls it their Touch-n-flow applicator.
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Post by Mr. Badwrench » Sun Jan 22, 2006 4:21 am

I use a tiny hypodermic syringe for most applications. But a brush comes in handy quite often too. Sometimes I apply glue by knocking the bottle over and gluing everything on the table into a big, gooey heap.
I speak of the pompatous of plastic.

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I use

Post by mightymax » Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:22 am

I use an old draftsmans ruling pen, like these.

http://www.reuels.com/reuels/page429.html


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Post by Jonas Calhoun » Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:39 pm

I bought a touch n flow at a hobby shop's closing sale. Much easier to control for long seams than a brush. Not quite in the 'how did I get along without it' category, but quite useful nonetheless.

I've only used with the Tenax and Microscale's Micro weld. The Tenax was hot enough that it worked very well, the micro weld less so. It doesn't evaporate quite as fast, so I had to move the applicator faster (more fluid would come out, and flood the area). Just a matter of getting used to it is all.

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Re: I use

Post by Kylwell » Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:57 pm

mightymax wrote:I use an old draftsmans ruling pen, like these.

http://www.reuels.com/reuels/page429.html


Cheers,
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I've probably got half dozen bow pens floating around here (drafting tool junkie) and have thought about using them to appy glue. How well do they work? Do you need to clean glop off the end very often?
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Post by DasPhule » Sun Jan 22, 2006 2:52 pm

Use Ambroid's ProWeld. It'll glue ABS to styrene, styrene to styrene,ABS to ABS, and even works with acrylic. Dries super fast too. I decant it into a Mr. Cement bottle, I've had way too many spills over the years when it's in the original tall bottle. The Mr. Cement bottles are short, square bottles that you really have to work at knocking over. I haven't had one spill since I started doing it.

To apply I use the brush in the bottle. I use an xacto to cut the bristles at an angle so that it forms a sharp point, perfect for getting into small nooks. I also have a syringe I use, but only occasionally.

For resin I use JB Weld after pinning. You'll break the resin part before a JB Weld joint lets go. Takes overight to dry, but it's well worth the wait.

I use CA only occasionally. I used to use it exclusively, but found that after a few years it gets really brittle and the slightest bumps to my models caused parts to pop off left and right. After fixing model after model, I stopped using it for building.

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Post by Kylwell » Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:10 pm

I've become very fond of the black CA. Sands nicely, fills well. It's only real flaw is it can take overnight for it to fully cure.

Nothing quite like glopping some on, hitting it with accelerator and then going to cut through it with the Dremel and hitting that gooey center. Way fun.
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Post by Jonas Calhoun » Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:50 pm

Kylwell, I just read a review of the black CA in my latest issue of Sport Rocketry. It noted this is a new formulation from the stuff I'd used previously, and that it didn't take paint very well--have you tried painting it?

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Post by Kylwell » Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:19 pm

Not yet, about to hit it with some 500.
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Re: I use

Post by mightymax » Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:49 am

[/quote]
I've probably got half dozen bow pens floating around here (drafting tool junkie) and have thought about using them to appy glue. How well do they work? Do you need to clean glop off the end very often?[/quote]

As far as cleanup of the ruling pen. Really I seldom ever get any glop on them. when I do get a little dried melted styrene on them I simply open the apature a little wider and run my #11 blade through it and it pops right off.

As far as how it works. I think it works great. I load up the pen and place it where I want to start the glue application. I then pull it back along the seam and the glue flows out of the pen and into the seam.
I have a touch and flow and another bottle type applicator. My problem with the TnFlow is it is long and gangly and there are times I have lost control of it and the tool goes places I did not want it to. Couple that with the fact that if you pick up a TnFlow the glue forms a globule at the tip. This means as soon as I touch the seam I feel I have to much glue!
Also when my TnFlow runs dry I sometimes have a problem getting it to refill with glue.

Nope my drafting pen is irreplaceable.

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Post by asenna » Mon Jan 23, 2006 8:41 pm

Hey Mightymax,

How are those draftsman pens work? I have never seen one in operation. I would guess they don't plug into a USB port? :wink:

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Works like a charm

Post by mightymax » Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:40 am

asenna wrote:Hey Mightymax,

How are those draftsman pens work? I have never seen one in operation. I would guess they don't plug into a USB port? :wink:

Very simple. You adjust the nib (point) with the thumbscrew. The wider the nib is apart the more glue will flow. I usually do not have mine open very wide. Once you have a comfortable flow set at the nib you simply dip the pen into the bottle of cement. When you take it out you have glue loaded in the tip and it will not go anywhere until you place it where you want it and pull along the seam.

I will add this. If you use a ruling pen make sure it has a handle that will not be affected by the model cement. I use one that has a wood handle.
I bought one once and it was plastic and did not like my Weld On.
It is a simple task to replace the plastic handle with a wood dowl.

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Re: I use

Post by Mr. Badwrench » Tue Jan 24, 2006 4:32 am

kylwell wrote:I've probably got half dozen bow pens floating around here (drafting tool junkie) and have thought about using them to appy glue. How well do they work? Do you need to clean glop off the end very often?
Hey Robb, next time we are at a CoMMiES meeting and Mike Jacobs is there, ask him. I'm pretty sure he uses one all the time.
I speak of the pompatous of plastic.

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Post by seeker » Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:02 pm

I'll add my support to the syringe. Even with the smallest brush I have, I always got glue everywhere. With about 10 minutes of practice with the syringe, I was putting glue exactly where I wanted it.

I got mine at a farm supply store (Tractor Supply Company). You should be able to buy them at veterinary supply stores, also, or possibly from a vet.
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Post by Antenociti » Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:53 pm

I'd been using a very small brush which was a major PITA - after reading this thread i quickly made up a syringe with the ultra-fine blue tip from Deluxe Materials "Pin Point" glue syringe pack (its pretty much like a rotring pen nib, not quite that fine but not far off it):

Absolutely works a treat, so much easier, faster, cleaner and more precise - now if i can replace the syringe with a small "squeezy" bottle i'll be even happier.

I'm using "Plastic Magic" as the glue at the moment and having some difficulties with .25mm styrene which is actually metling through no matter how little you use on it. Is that a general problem with that thickness of styrene or is this glue i'm using just far too aggresive?

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Post by Kylwell » Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:55 pm

Antenociti wrote:I'm using "Plastic Magic" as the glue at the moment and having some difficulties with .25mm styrene which is actually metling through no matter how little you use on it. Is that a general problem with that thickness of styrene or is this glue i'm using just far too aggresive?
It's just too agressive. I've taken to using CA or some lite glue for paper thin styrene.
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Post by Antenociti » Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:02 pm

I'll try another liquid cement i've just got in then (Slater's Mek-Pak) and if that's the same switch to a CA.

This is the fine glue needle tip FTI: http://www.barrule.com/ebaybitz/cimg0324.jpg

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Post by didihno » Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:24 am

Hmmm...this looks like the place.....

Right I have a glue problem.
I tried to glue a plastic rawl plug to a piece of soft plastic, kind of like a drinks bottle.
At first I used polystyrene cement but it didn't take at all.
So I tried super glue. Nope, no effect.
So I tried 2 part epoxy.
Nothing.
I sanded both surfaces lightly and tried super G again.
Nope.

Is there such a thing as two different types of plastic that just will not ahdere to each other?
The soft plastic of the bottle and the hard plastic of the rawl plug?
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Post by Kylwell » Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:20 am

IIRC most drinking bottles are formed with polyetheline which is rather inert. A good rough sanding and some CA or epoxy might work, but yes there are plastics which cannot be easily glued.
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Post by didihno » Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:30 am

Dammit.
It was just the right shape too.
Back to the old drawing board, as Wil E Coyote said (once ever)....
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Post by Jonas Calhoun » Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:21 pm

Depending on what you need from the bottle, you can try casting it in something that will take glue, or bending sheet styrene into the shape of the bottle...

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Post by Mr. Badwrench » Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:40 am

What is a rawl plug? Is it made of a vaguely waxy, translucent white plastic? If so it is probably polypropylene, the same stuff they make super glue tubes out of. Polyethylene is similar, they are both very inert, nothing will react with them. Most solvents won't touch them, methylene chloride, (Tenax or Ambroid), Testors cements, lacquer thinner, etc. And they are almost completely non-porous, so super glue can't get a bite. That's why CA tubes are made from them, instead of glass.There is something else aboyt them that prevents CA from adhering, I don't know how it works, chemistry is a complete mystery to me.

The nice thing about these plastics is, they are real easy to cast. Pour in a casting resin and slosh it around. Like anything else, it won't stick to the plastic. But it should make a pretty accurate reproduction of the bottle, you'll just have to cut the bottle and peel it off.
I speak of the pompatous of plastic.

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Post by starmanmm » Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:33 am

My project is the 22" E and I am concerned about the two halves of the engineering hull splitting in the future ( I'm gluing the ship together. Not doing the cutaway version).

So my question is, which glue would be better for the job?

Tenax or Ambroid?

I'm looking for a glue with holding power! I just want to glue this part and the saucer section once. Don't want to deal with gluing it back together again sometime in the future because it came apart!

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Post by Mr. Badwrench » Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:04 pm

Tenax and Ambroid are almost exactly the same. The active ingredient is methylene chloride. (So don't drink it). To really keep your hull from splitting, try reinforcing it from the inside with plastic strips. Glue little strips all along the inside of one hull half, hanging over the edge, and let the glue cure. Then put the two halves together and glue them from the inside. I'm pretty sure the way the engineering hull is put together will allow you to do this. If you're really paranoid, (like me), you can further reinforce the joint with fibreglass.
I speak of the pompatous of plastic.

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Post by TREKKRIFFIC » Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:21 am

starmanmm wrote:My project is the 22" E and I am concerned about the two halves of the engineering hull splitting in the future ( I'm gluing the ship together. Not doing the cutaway version).

So my question is, which glue would be better for the job?

Tenax or Ambroid?

I'm looking for a glue with holding power! I just want to glue this part and the saucer section once. Don't want to deal with gluing it back together again sometime in the future because it came apart!
Rather than relying strictly on glue to hold the two halves together have you considered gluing a bulkhead or two inside the hull ?
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Post by starmanmm » Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:09 pm

Have done the styrene strip thing in the past. I don't have the kit in front of me, but I'm not sure that the insert (that has the shuttlebay and bulk of the engineering section) will allow for this little trick.

Humm, gluing the insert to the hull may help.

I'm just concern that once glued and I start sanding the seams, it just my crack due to the pressure of sanding.

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Post by Bar » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:53 pm

Mr. Badwrench wrote:Tenax and Ambroid are almost exactly the same. The active ingredient is methylene chloride.
I have heard this before. Is this the entire mix,or is there another ingredient?
I recall once reading that there was a certain chemical you could buy in gallon containers, and it would last forever as a styrene cement.
I thought i'd post this here for info.
I go through a lot of polystyrene cement, and i'm looking for a mix i can brush on when building up many layers in a short time.
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